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Robot Visions

 
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David Johnston

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Since: Mar 25, 2007
Posts: 40



(Msg. 31) Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:43 am
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:33:55 -0700, John Schilling
wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:28:38 -0400, yoof.DeleteThis@jwgh.org (Jacob W. Haller) wrote:
>
>>Tim Bruening wrote:
>
>>> David Johnston wrote:
>
>>> Extinction sounds like harm to me!
>
>>If you decide not to have any kids, does that hurt you?
>
>
>If you live in a society where all care and comfort for the elderly is
>provided by their own children,

Not actually applicable to a world filled with robot servants.

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John Schilling

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Since: Apr 06, 2005
Posts: 17



(Msg. 32) Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:39 am
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 04:43:44 GMT, David Johnston wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:33:55 -0700, John Schilling
> wrote:

>>On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:28:38 -0400, yoof.TakeThisOut@jwgh.org (Jacob W. Haller) wrote:

>>>Tim Bruening wrote:

>>>> David Johnston wrote:

>>>> Extinction sounds like harm to me!

>>>If you decide not to have any kids, does that hurt you?

>>If you live in a society where all care and comfort for the elderly is
>>provided by their own children,

>Not actually applicable to a world filled with robot servants.

"Care and comfort" involves psychological as well as merely physical
support, and it may not be possible for robot servants to handle that
part adequately.


--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schillin@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *

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Joe Bednorz

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Since: Mar 31, 2006
Posts: 76



(Msg. 33) Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:23 am
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:39:32 -0700, John Schilling wrote in
:

>On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 04:43:44 GMT, David Johnston wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:33:55 -0700, John Schilling
>> wrote:
>
>>>On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:28:38 -0400, yoof.RemoveThis@jwgh.org (Jacob W. Haller) wrote:
>
>>>>Tim Bruening wrote:
>
>>>>> David Johnston wrote:
>
>>>>> Extinction sounds like harm to me!
>
>>>>If you decide not to have any kids, does that hurt you?
>
>>>If you live in a society where all care and comfort for the elderly is
>>>provided by their own children,
>
>>Not actually applicable to a world filled with robot servants.
>
>"Care and comfort" involves psychological as well as merely physical
>support, and it may not be possible for robot servants to handle that
>part adequately.

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25394-2005Mar10?language=printer>

"The robotic rush in Japan is also being driven by unique societal
needs. Confronting a major depopulation problem due to a record low
birthrate and its status as the nation with the longest lifespan on
Earth, Japanese are fretting about who will staff the factory floors of
the world's second-largest economy in the years ahead."


"A robotic baby harp seal, developed with $10 million in government
grants, that went on sale commercially this month for $3,500 each. All
200 units sold out in less than 50 hours."

"The seal is meant to provide therapy for the elderly who are filling
Japanese nursing homes at an alarming rate while often falling prey to
depression and loneliness."


"I have no grandchildren and my family does not come to see me very
often," said Kasuya, clutching fast to the baby seal robot wiggling in
her arms. "So I have her," she said, pointing to the seal. "She is so
cute, and is always happy to see me."


--
Links to Gigabytes of free books on line, emphasis on SF:
<http://www.mindspring.com/~jbednorz/Free/>
All the Best,
Joe Bednorz
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tsbrueni

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Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 980



(Msg. 34) Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

Mark Atwood wrote:

> Tim Bruening writes:
> > > >Wouldn't the extinction of humanity count as a massive violation of the
> > > >First Law?
> > > No.
> > Extinction sounds like harm to me!
>
> (makes choking sounds, since he's probably not supposed to name the
> manuscript he's reading that has that very event as the backstory...)

You're reading a manuscript about the extinction of the human race?
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tsbrueni

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Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 980



(Msg. 35) Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

Joe Bednorz wrote:

> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25394-2005Mar10?language=printer>
>
> "The robotic rush in Japan is also being driven by unique societal
> needs. Confronting a major depopulation problem due to a record low
> birthrate and its status as the nation with the longest lifespan on
> Earth, Japanese are fretting about who will staff the factory floors of
> the world's second-largest economy in the years ahead."
>
> "A robotic baby harp seal, developed with $10 million in government
> grants, that went on sale commercially this month for $3,500 each. All
> 200 units sold out in less than 50 hours."
>
> "The seal is meant to provide therapy for the elderly who are filling
> Japanese nursing homes at an alarming rate while often falling prey to
> depression and loneliness."

Why robot seals? Why not robot cats and dogs?
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tsbrueni

External


Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 980



(Msg. 36) Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

Joe Bednorz wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:39:32 -0700, John Schilling wrote in
> :
>
> >On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 04:43:44 GMT, David Johnston wrote:
> >
> >>On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:33:55 -0700, John Schilling
> >> wrote:
> >
> >>>On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:28:38 -0400, yoof.TakeThisOut@jwgh.org (Jacob W. Haller) wrote:
> >
> >>>>Tim Bruening wrote:
> >
> >>>>> David Johnston wrote:
> >
> >>>>> Extinction sounds like harm to me!
> >
> >>>>If you decide not to have any kids, does that hurt you?
> >
> >>>If you live in a society where all care and comfort for the elderly is
> >>>provided by their own children,
> >
> >>Not actually applicable to a world filled with robot servants.
> >
> >"Care and comfort" involves psychological as well as merely physical
> >support, and it may not be possible for robot servants to handle that
> >part adequately.
>
> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25394-2005Mar10?language=printer>
>
> "The robotic rush in Japan is also being driven by unique societal
> needs. Confronting a major depopulation problem due to a record low
> birthrate and its status as the nation with the longest lifespan on
> Earth, Japanese are fretting about who will staff the factory floors of
> the world's second-largest economy in the years ahead."
>
> "A robotic baby harp seal, developed with $10 million in government
> grants, that went on sale commercially this month for $3,500 each. All
> 200 units sold out in less than 50 hours."

Do harp seals play music?

Will robot harp seals be hunted by robot humans with metal clubs?
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tsbrueni

External


Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 980



(Msg. 37) Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

Mark Atwood wrote:

> Tim Bruening writes:
> > > >Wouldn't the extinction of humanity count as a massive violation of the
> > > >First Law?
> > > No.
> > Extinction sounds like harm to me!
>
> (makes choking sounds, since he's probably not supposed to name the
> manuscript he's reading that has that very event as the backstory...)

YASID: An overgrowth of plants wipes out the human race. Its not "Little Shop
Of Horrors" or "Day of the Triffids". The final chapter was "Extinction of the
human race".
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mscottschillin

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Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 115



(Msg. 38) Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:28 am
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

"Mark Atwood" wrote in message

> Tim Bruening writes:
>> Mark Atwood wrote:
>> >
>> > (makes choking sounds, since he's probably not supposed to name the
>> > manuscript he's reading that has that very event as the backstory...)
>>
>> You're reading a manuscript about the extinction of the human race?
>
> No, the extinction happened in the backstory...

That sounds like a Hollywood producer joke:

"I want a big start, something that'll grab the audience by the throat."

"How abou the extinction of the human race?"

"Not big enough"
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Thomas Womack

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Since: Jul 30, 2003
Posts: 2



(Msg. 39) Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

In article ,
Tim Bruening wrote:

> YASID: An overgrowth of plants wipes out the human race. Its not
> "Little Shop Of Horrors" or "Day of the Triffids". The final
> chapter was "Extinction of the human race".

There's a segmented Charlie Stross short story 'Extracts from the Club
Diary', http://www.antipope.org/charlie/fiction/coffee.html in which
the world is taken over by GM coffee plants, but that's the only one I
can think of.

Tom
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user253

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Since: Feb 18, 2004
Posts: 21



(Msg. 40) Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:14 pm
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In alt.books.isaac-asimov Tim Bruening wrote:
> YASID: An overgrowth of plants wipes out the human race. Its not "Little Shop
> Of Horrors" or "Day of the Triffids".
> The final chapter was "Extinction of the human race".

It's been a long time since I read this, but could it be
Thomas M.Disch - The genocides

It does end with the extinction of the human race, although I can't
check if that was the chapter title.
--
********************************************************************
** Eef Hartman, Delft University of Technology, dept. EWI/TW **
** e-mail: E.J.M.Hartman.TakeThisOut@math.tudelft.nl, fax: +31-15-278 7295 **
** snail-mail: P.O. Box 5031, 2600 GA Delft, The Netherlands **
********************************************************************
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tsbrueni

External


Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 980



(Msg. 41) Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:46 am
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

Joe Bednorz wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:39:32 -0700, John Schilling wrote in
> :
>
> >On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 04:43:44 GMT, David Johnston wrote:
> >
> >>On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 19:33:55 -0700, John Schilling
> >> wrote:
> >
> >>>On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:28:38 -0400, yoof.DeleteThis@jwgh.org (Jacob W. Haller) wrote:
> >
> >>>>Tim Bruening wrote:
> >
> >>>>> David Johnston wrote:
> >
> >>>>> Extinction sounds like harm to me!
> >
> >>>>If you decide not to have any kids, does that hurt you?
> >
> >>>If you live in a society where all care and comfort for the elderly is
> >>>provided by their own children,
> >
> >>Not actually applicable to a world filled with robot servants.
> >
> >"Care and comfort" involves psychological as well as merely physical
> >support, and it may not be possible for robot servants to handle that
> >part adequately.
>
> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25394-2005Mar10?language=printer>
>
> "The robotic rush in Japan is also being driven by unique societal
> needs. Confronting a major depopulation problem due to a record low
> birthrate and its status as the nation with the longest lifespan on
> Earth, Japanese are fretting about who will staff the factory floors of
> the world's second-largest economy in the years ahead."
>
> "A robotic baby harp seal, developed with $10 million in government
> grants, that went on sale commercially this month for $3,500 each. All
> 200 units sold out in less than 50 hours."

Do harp seals play music?

Will robot harp seals be hunted by robot humans with metal clubs?
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CatBar

External


Since: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 4



(Msg. 42) Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:11 am
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

On Sep 3, 11:23 am, d....DeleteThis@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
> dave hillstrom wrote:
> >On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:43:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
> >>See: "_That Thou Art Mindful of Him".  A sufficiently complex robot
> >>has to discriminate between humans - deciding which human to obey, for
> >>example.  It can't judge by mere appearance, but has to take more
> >>abstract qualities such as intelligence into account. In TTAMoH, the
> >>robots decide that robots are not only human within the meaning of the
> >>three laws, they are also a type of human that needs to be protected
> >>above the others.  In such a way can the First Law cause robots to
> >>allow the extinction of humanity, because from their point of view,
> >>humanity isn't extinct.
>
> >i want a robot body.  can i have that?  with a full overhaul of the
> >neurotransmitter chemistry in my brain?
>
> Talk to Andrew Martin; I'm sure you could work something out.
>
> Dave
> --
> \/David DeLaney posting from d....DeleteThis@vic.com "It's not the pot that       grows the flower
> It's not the clock that slows the hour  The definition's plain for anyone to see
> Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE        HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>http://www.vic.com/~dbd/- net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

I too would love a robot body, with an enhanced much-improved organic
brain that has perfect recall.
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CatBar

External


Since: Oct 20, 2008
Posts: 4



(Msg. 43) Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:15 am
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Oct 20, 12:11 pm, CatBar wrote:
> On Sep 3, 11:23 am, d....DeleteThis@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > dave hillstrom wrote:
> > >On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:43:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
> > >>See: "_That Thou Art Mindful of Him".  A sufficiently complex robot
> > >>has to discriminate between humans - deciding which human to obey, for
> > >>example.  It can't judge by mere appearance, but has to take more
> > >>abstract qualities such as intelligence into account. In TTAMoH, the
> > >>robots decide that robots are not only human within the meaning of the
> > >>three laws, they are also a type of human that needs to be protected
> > >>above the others.  In such a way can the First Law cause robots to
> > >>allow the extinction of humanity, because from their point of view,
> > >>humanity isn't extinct.
>
> > >i want a robot body.  can i have that?  with a full overhaul of the
> > >neurotransmitter chemistry in my brain?
>
> > Talk to Andrew Martin; I'm sure you could work something out.
>
> > Dave
> > --
> > \/David DeLaney posting from d....DeleteThis@vic.com "It's not the pot that       grows the flower
> > It's not the clock that slows the hour  The definition's plain for anyone to see
> > Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE        HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>http://www.vic.com/~dbd/-net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
>
> I too would love a robot body, with an enhanced much-improved organic
> brain that has perfect recall.- Hide quoted text -
> I'd also love to meet and talk with the cool Andrew Martin.
> - Show quoted text -
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tsbrueni

External


Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 980



(Msg. 44) Posted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

John Schilling wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Jun 2007 14:28:38 -0400, yoof.TakeThisOut@jwgh.org (Jacob W. Haller) wrote:
>
> >Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> >> David Johnston wrote:
>
> >> Extinction sounds like harm to me!
>
> >If you decide not to have any kids, does that hurt you?
>
> If you live in a society where all care and comfort for the elderly is
> provided by their own children, that might set you up for a world of
> hurt thirty or forty years down the road.
>
> If you live in a society that handles such things collectively rather
> than familialy, your decision not to have any kids could be argued to
> hurt absolutely everybody, one little infinitesmial bit.
>
> Of course, how to deal with people who only hurt themselves, and how
> to deal with extremely diffuse collective harm, are among the trickiest
> ethical problems. Somehow I'm skeptical that just branding a positronic
> brain with "thou shalt not allow a human to come to harm!", automagically
> generates unambiguous solutions.
>
> >If so, what, exactly, is a robot supposed to do about it?
>
> Replacing all your birth control pills with placebos would be the obvious
> answer. The more practical one might involve various subtle propaganda
> claims coordinated by many robots who have observed the same "problem".

I got the impression in Robot Visions that humanity had lost at least 90% of
its population and maybe all of it due to environmental disasters and/or war.
It was a very "sad time", according to the robot that had gone to the future.
I would expect that robots would be obligated to prevent humans from being
harmed and rendered extinct by wars or other disasters.
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tsbrueni

External


Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 980



(Msg. 45) Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:20 am
Post subject: Re: Robot Visions [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>isaac-asimov, others (more info?)

"David Formosa (aka ? the Platypus)" wrote:

> On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 05:40:02 GMT, Wayne Throop wrote:
> >: Tim Bruening
> >: The First Law prohibits robots from, through inaction, allowing humans
> >: to come to harm. Thus the narrator should be compelled to prevent the
> >: extinction of humanity!
> >
> > How, specificially, does it harm a human (some, or any, specific human)
> > to have the human race become extinct?
>
> This theme is played on in Stross's "Saturn's children". While his
> robots arn't Asimovian even when they relize that the human race is
> going extinct however they can't make them breed as that would violate
> the person's freedom and constitute harm.

Why aren't those humans willing to breed voluntarily?
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